Brexit Chaos Part Deux - Let's Play Deal or No Deal

Well, it’s been a while since we had our Great Bexit Debate thread, Now things have changed - kind of…

I’d say everything has changed for the absolute worse for Britain. The Boris Johnson deal isn’t a deal at all if you read it. It pretty much kicks British European MPs out of Brussels on October 31st, but then everything continues as normal.

Free trade and free movement will continue until the end of 2020. However, this period can be extended indefinitely. It also probably would be, given the fact MP’s and businesses are so terrified of what might happen when Britain does leave the EU, that MPs have already drawn out Brexit for 3-years already.

At this point, the BJ deal is just Brexit in name only - with the small caveat that it makes Britan a vassal state of the EU in the truest form possible. I find the irony in that quite incredible.

All that said, I’m all for it!

The way the new deal approaches the Ireland issue means that Northern Ireland will get to vote whether it stays linked to the EU customs union every 4-years. The way I see it, this will eventually see the UK locked into the EU indefinitely. Britain might want to leave but Northern Ireland might want to stay close to the EU, and leaving at the end of a transition period would, therefore, mean splitting up the UK.

Indefinitely extending transition periods could also be the only thing that appeases Scotland enough to not go independent.

Sadly, this all comes at the expense of the UK paying more to the EU and not getting anything in return. I’m just for it all as I want to be able to say “I told you so” in a few years time and retain my freedom of movement. If the deal passes, I’ll be moving to Bansko in Bulgaria in spring and get to take my now 2 dogs with me with the option of returning to Malta if I don’t like it. If it doesn’t pass, I’ll be in Georgia by the end of November, but will only be able to keep 1 dog.

As I said, all my reasons for being pro-BJ at this point are very selfish. What, though, are your views - if you have any either way?

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The EU played Macedonia very well.

The only issue for Macedonia not starting the ascension protocol used to be name dispute with Greece. This morning France voted against, which gave a signal that we are never going to have the change again.

Macron even spoke against the visa-free regime for Macedonians.

The entire story of Macedonia joining the EU is the same story when a young kid likes to spend his time playing with the older kids. And we all know how that ands.

As time passes by, I see Macedonia siding with China/Russia/Modia. This might be a better option in the long-run. :slight_smile:

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You should be careful what you wish for. I’d much prefer it if China could go back to it’s isolationist roots. i.e. The time they built big walls and pretended the rest of the world didn’t exist. Russia I’m not to hot about either. However, I do consider Putin a master statesman. He does have a dictatorial way of hanging on to power. When you think about it though, so does Angela Merkel.

I mention it to Germans sometimes. Most fawn over Merkel but when you pop the question “have you noticed that Merkel has been Chancellor since before the Internet was really a big deal?” they suddenly realize that German democracy might be a tiny bit flawed.

One thing I did notice when I lived in Hungary was that a surprising amount of people missed the days of the USSR. I could also understand why after a while. The problem was that to really like communism, you had to gloss over a few inconvenient truths - like the Gulag camps killing quite a few more people than the holocaust and still going strong until 1989…

Really, we need an alternative option to the US, EU, China and Russia. The Roman Empire seemed to work well. I’d like to see that reinstated. It would take a bit of work but I think it would be worth it.

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I’d rather be friendly with the east than the west. Because the West had always been against Macedonia (that’s because the first terrorist organization was from Macedonia and used to do all sorts of terrors against western targets).

Well, during the time of the USSR and the Iron Curtain, people in those countries used to have cheap food, free housing, free healthcare, life was more relaxed and etc.

Not to mention Yugoslavia, where my grandparents, as a regular working-class used to:

  • Afford an apartment in the city center
  • Bought a brand new car
  • Started building a house in the countryside
  • They were able to afford long vacations
  • Food was always on the table
  • Healthcare was free
  • They had a lot of benefits from work
  • My dad and uncle managed to graduate and find a job in the late '80s (during socialism).
  • Literally, there was visa-free travel in entire Europe, Africa, Asia, South America. Just a couple of countries required visa for Yugoslav citizens. (USA, UK, Greece and the USSR).

While in today’s “democratic” Macedonia:

  • You can’t afford an apartment. Not even with governmental subsidies.
  • You can only afford a beat down used car imported from Germany.
  • You can’t have money to build a house in the countryside.
  • You can barely afford a short vacation in the cheap parts of Greece.
  • There are many poor people that can’t meet ends.
  • Healthcare is still free according to laws, but it actually isn’t.
  • No benefits from work whatsoever.
  • College can’t be afforded by everyone.
  • Tons of minimal wage jobs, with which you can’t afford a great life.
  • Until a couple of years ago you needed visas for everywhere except Serbia…

The only thing that was missing, was political freedom and public opinion about the communist party.

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That’s the problem. It’s a petty big one when you put it into practice. When my ex’s dad married her mother he was nobody. However the mothers father was someone big in the secret police. (i can’t remember what they were called in Hungary.) To make sure his daughter was looked after, he got his son in law a job with the secret police too. A few years later, he (my ex’s father) apparently broke down because he couldn’t face doing what he was doing. (Which I assume was dissapearing people.)

Long story short, he decided to quit, but the day he went to do it his father in law called my ex’s mum to say he husband had died of a heart attack and wouldn’t be coming home. She knew that her dad had played a part in either killing her husband or having him shipped off somewhere. In thus case, she never spoke to her parents again.

BUT She managed to become a pharmacist, make a living, and buy an apartment, all thanks to free education al a USSR. - And she was still all for it.

This is why I could never understand the psychology of some older Hungarians who longed for the good old days of the USSR. If you read up on the Gulag, you also see that here was a heavy price paid by a lot of people for all the every day benefits communism brought with it.

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Yugoslavia was more relaxed. To be fair, Yugoslavia even though it was communist it was in the third-world countries block, and it wasn’t aligned with NATO nor the Soviet Union. It collaborated and traded with both countries.

Western Music and movies were completely legal here. People just enjoyed their lives and did everything they liked except speaking against the communist. They were free to travel whenever and wherever they liked.

My grandfather, from my mother’s side. Was convicted and jailed for a couple of months as he spoke against Tito. However, he was never killed, tortured.

Occasionally, when high-ranking officials came to visit the company where he worked (a plumber for the largest supermarket chain) they detained him in the basement so he won’t cause a scene. He was a Serb and he supported the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

Although, I think that he wasn’t killed or tortured as my grandma’s father was the major of a smaller town and a former partisan (he was also an MP). So I think he pulled some strings, as he knew that my granddad was all talk no play.

While, from my dad’s side, both of my grandparents where working class - and they enjoyed life.

At the end of the day, you don’t care for personal and political freedom if you manage to live a great life. Look at Libya now, they cry for Gaddafi. :slight_smile:

He was never sent to Goli otok. People were beaten, tortured and killed in Yugoslavia.

Not to mention Yugoslavia, where my grandparents, as a regular working-class used to:

Afford an apartment in the city center
Bought a brand new car
Started building a house in the countryside
They were able to afford long vacations
Food was always on the table
Healthcare was free
They had a lot of benefits from work
My dad and uncle managed to graduate and find a job in the late '80s (during socialism).
Literally, there was visa-free travel in entire Europe, Africa, Asia, South America. Just a couple of countries required visa for Yugoslav citizens. (USA, UK, Greece and the USSR).

A lot of people couldn’t afford all that. Food was not always on the table for everyone. And visa-free travel only became available later (if you could afford to travel); before that, you couldn’t even get a passport.

To be fair, Serbians were tortured and killed more than others. :slightly_smiling_face: From Macedonia just a few “separatists” were killed.

You could have easily traveled to Greece or anywhere in Europe. With Trgoputnik, there were quite cheap tours that you could have paid with no interest credit.

You do care about freedom. After the dust settles, lives aren’t that great. In China the ‘great life’ for the vast majority of people amounts to an identical life as everyone else, living in an identical apartment, and never having an opportunity to have or be anything more.

For the working classes, that is how communism always ends up long-term. Then just as tensions start building, systems are put in place to stamp out any kind of public protest or even private disobedience.

As for Libya, most Libyan people always loved Gaddafi. Most of footage of protests the BBC showed at the time was actually footage of a protest in India. All Libya was, was your bog standard “we have to do it because they’re bad people” (and coincidentally have lots of oil) American regime change. America after all, never bats an eye lid at things like the 1990s genocide in Rwanda. Nor do they ever go after rich Saudis who chop up reporters in embassies.

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I agree, America works for who buys weapons and pours more money in their pockets.

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They weren’t cheap enough for my family.

Yeah, but they were affordable as you could have paid them on longer period without interest.

The thing is there was freedom of movement - that can’t be denied. Unlike in other socialist countries.

Not in the beginning, when you weren’t even allowed to have a passport. Later, yes, there was freedom of movement, and you didn’t need a visa. You just needed enough money to travel (which some people didn’t have, even if allowed to pay little bit by little bit, and some did).

I think this discussion has proven what I’ve thought all along - none of us know what it’s like to live anybody else’s life, and to think we can pass an opinion on what’s happening in another country, another continent or even just in the house across the street is wrong.

Everybody’s different and we can’t generalize about the situations of others without upsetting them or getting it horribly wrong.

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Yep, freedom of movement was allowed after the split from the inform bureau.

Serbia and Macedonia had one of the worst passports in the world pre-2008. Maybe not the worst, but it was quite limited.

Yep, we only discuss - and the info we have isn’t 100% objective.

I don’t agree with this. I get where you are coming from. However. there is a difference between forming an opinion and being disrespectful of other peoples or cultures. It is also a little hypocritical to take this kind of mindset in the grander scheme of things.

We all pay tax after all, to governments which have something of a habit of forming opinions concerning how horrible it must be for people living in countries like Syria and, therefore, we must drop lots of tax payer bought bombs on them.

You can even go so far as to blame a lot of the suffering people went through in countries under the USSR on our own legendary Winston Churchill and Theodore Roosevelt carving up Central and Eastern Europe, before handing it to Stalin as thanks for helping us win WWII.

I like to think that its better to form an opinion (though never an absolute opinion) as this at least shows that you have taken interest in the history and intricacies of other cultures.

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Why?

I don’t know what it’s like to live anywhere else in the world, even if I’ve read articles, visited as a tourist etc. Actually living in a place, being a part of a society etc. is completely different to being an observer or spectator.

A bit before my time I’m afraid. :wink:

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I do agree about this. What we say about Rwanda, Syria and etc are speculations depending on which media outlets we follow.

If you follow RT - they say that life in Syria is awesome.
If you follow CNN - they will say something opposite.

However, the statements for Yugoslavia are from stories that I have heard from various family members.

Well, from my experience, everyone at their core is exactly the same everywhere. Same wants, ambitions, dreams, daily life patterns. The scenery just changes.

The problem with the whole world is that every society is topped with a lecherous parasitic government, that really only exists to brainwash the societies it feeds off so that it can wield whatever state it has assumed dominion over like a weapon and machine for the feeding of its own excess.

And, of course, you have a few grunts everywhere.

It is interesting if you look into the pre-history of Europe. Cairns in Scotland are built in the same way and to the same alignment as temples in Malta. You can even trace Welsh and Gaelic to a common dialect in Syria. At one point, basically we all have a common cultural ancestry. Moreover, outside Europe, societies all evolved in pretty much the same way. That’s why things like marriage are universal.

I guess my point is that even though you might never live in different place, the differences between people and different cultures is largely illusory.